The Vagaries of Discussing Topics With Leftists

A friend of mind posted a simple statement on his Facebook page last evening:

Why is it that when you confront liberals with facts, they go ballistic and bring up any and all non-related matters to try and get the better of you? Just wondering.

In response, I posted the following:

Simply put, they have attended indoctrination centers, formerly called government schools, formerly called public schools, wherein their ability to reason and complete logical thought was suppressed while their emotional response mechanism was heightened to a frenzied pitch.

Interestingly, another individual stated this morning the following:

Facts? Correct me if I’m wrong but liberals might quote the media , which from what we’re told is giving us the news and what’s happening. But conservatives quote that book called the bible a lot more times and use that as fact. Some book written almost two thousand years ago. And liberals are the crazy ones??

The commentary disparaging the Bible irked me and necessitated a response from me. But I was interested in being vicious or personal. I merely wanted to address the rather unbecoming comment about the Bible. So I replied,

If you’re going to play that line Ronnie, just remember what’s been around longer and is more respected, the Bible or “the media”?

For years opinions have been masqueraded by the media as “reporting” in the United States. It becomes readily apparent there needs to be an understanding of what the Bible offers to individuals in the living of their lives as opposed to what is constantly put forth as what is to be “believed” based on the statements of those in the “media.” Yet that comment set off a three hour discussion which I believe needs to be cataloged for reference and a reminder of just how my friend’s initial statement is proven truthful. For ease of following, the individual I was writing to will be “Person 1” and I’ll simply be “Me”. As others interject, I will name them “Person 2”, etc.

Person 1:

Your right, we should ignore the news and just follow all those rules in that book. It hasn’t cause wars or hatred or anything bad. Lets persecute the gays and keep slaves. The koran has been around longer than the media too. Should we listen to that as well more than the media?

Nobody should be listening to just one source and have it be the be all end all. Conservatives should not only listen to fox news or the bible ans [sic] liberals should not listen to only one news source. One should be open minded and listen to as many as possible than form their own judgement. Its the close minded people who think their one souece is all they need. It just so happens that those people are mostly conservatives who have only one news place to go or one oudated [sic] book. Most liberals already are open minded and open to new ideas.

Me:

Ah yes, the tired old line about “hating gays.” It would do you good to actually read the Bible instead of assuming what others tell you to be the case. Christ dined with sinners and expressed love for sinners but abhorred the sin. As stated in Romans 5:8 “But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”

Person 1:

Than why do Christians do everything possible to butt in to those peoples lives and tell them what they can and can’t do?

Me:

Those who take the time to think are also capable of critiquing what they find in the “sources” they search. Hence the reason I’m capable of finding the fallacy and outright lies in the collected “media”.

Person 1:

Oh but the people you speak of don’t go to “indoctrination centers” or as others call them schools right?

Why even have schools and places of higher learning when we can just send everyone to church only and do everything they tell us to do??

Me:

There you go again. Lumping everyone together with a name. But you just said that we should be “open minded”. Or does that only refer to your POV?

There is a difference between a school – which teaches multiple concepts and ideas on a topic – and an indoctrination center – which only teaches one “accepted thought” about a specific topic. Let’s try evolution, creationism, and “intelligent design” as an example. There are lots of people who make it though the indoctrination centers people still insist upon calling public schools, specifically because they have a family that loves and cares for them enough to provide them the alternative viewpoints and concepts so they are “open minded.”

Person 1:

Sorry, I’m not sending my kids anywhere that says god created adam and eve and that’s where we started from. Go read something that isn’t from fox news and we can debate another time. Conservative 0 Liberals 1 on this one.

Me:

Aw, you’re taking your keyboard home because of what I typed? And you want to call the score too? You’re more liberal than you initially presented yourself to be.

Person 1:

And you talk of “indoctrination centers”? Please show me a worse case of indoctrination centers than the Catholic churches.

Me:

What age of the Church are you talking about? There are different time periods in the Church and each one had its pros and cons. Unlike the compulsory indoctrination centers of today, the Roman Catholic Church does not “demand” membership. Rather, the person is provided the opportunity to join if they are adults. If a person was baptized into the Faith as a new born, they are provided the opportunity to walk away as they mature and are free to decline the Rite of Confirmation.

Person 1:

Just like a child’s parents can give them their opinion on how this world was created or what is right or wrong. Who said public schools is the only place kids get taught something?

Me:

Only if the parents love the child enough to seek to provide that viewpoint to the child. But usually at that point, the parents will be seeking better forms of education where multiple viewpoints are provided and there is “open mindedness” on all subjects.

Sadly, the public education system that was seen as a value in the 1920’s through the mid 1960’s has become the indoctrination centers of today where only the Leftist viewpoint on each subject and topic is taught and every effort is made to disparage and marginalize “alternative viewpoints” which crushes the inquisitiveness and natural learning interest of the child. But do go ahead and continue to mouth the indoctrination centers’ mantra that they are “the best.”

By the way, if the media was so “open minded,” why is it that we haven’t heard anything about the 26 budgets that have been sent over to the Senate by the HOR? And whatever happened to the slaughter taking place in Syria?

Typical Leftists: always needing a new drama to mask the failure in managing the old one.

But when “the Media” is in the back pocket of the President, it isn’t too surprising for those who think.

Person 1:

I never said they are the best. Did you go to public schools? Is everyone that goes to a “indoctrination center” a liberal? Its weird isn’t it that the most educated and smartest people in the world are usually liberal. But that’s just cause they were all brainwashed right? Did you ever travel the world? See how others live? Or do you think America is the best and there is no need to see how other countries function?

Me:

I’m just going to let that one stand by itself for the ridicule it richly deserves.

Person 1:

I don’t care about those things. Do you really care about Syria? Is it affecting you or your family? Or even the president? If there is a democrat running the country do you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna work hard, save my money and spend sparingly. Do you know what I’m gonna do if a republican is in office? I’m gonna woek [sic] hard save my money and spend sparingly. Its you conservatives that waste your time complaining aboyt [sic] everything. All [the original poster] ever posts about is that whiny conservative crap talking about how bad our government is. Stop complaining. My life is fine. I worry about myself and my family. Who cares about congress [sic] or syria [sic]? No matter those things I need to work hatd [sic] for my family and that’s it. All you whiny conservatives are just wasting your time complaining about everything. Us liberals just laugh at you all.

Me:

Actually, Syria does affect my family and me because the actions of the President affects how I am viewed as an American when I travel internationally or when I am on TCs with financials. Why? Because the rest of the world’s populations views the actions of the head of state as an initial example of how the citizens of that country think, act, and believe/feel toward the rest of the world. Don’t think so? Remember at the beginning of Obama’s Regime when he went around the world and bowed to every head of state he met? Recall how he and Hillary Clinton made it a point to minimize themselves and marginalize the United States in meetings with the leaders and representatives of individual countries? Yep. Whether you like it or not, that “display” is how you and me and every person who is an American citizen is viewed by the outside world. It damn well does affect the President whether he knows it or not, because it affects how other heads of state view him.

I’m glad to read you want to work hard and save money for yourself and your family. That’s nice. Isn’t it interesting how Liberals, Leftists, whatever they want to be called, will make fun of what conservatives post? Yet they will continually post comments and statements about how great “liberal theology” is? – Yeah, I went there; it is a theology and not a POV. Still the Leftists fail miserably to identify how their actions, such as

the continual printing of money instead of reigning in the physical cash reserves,
the requirement that “everyone” is supposed to buy health insurance when the original push for HillaryCare and ObamaCare was to “provide coverage for those who couldn’t afford health insurance,”
the horrendous control placed on firearms (go check out how safe Detroit and Chicago are with the tightest gun control laws in the country),

all of these things are abjectly destroying our American way of life, opportunities for our families to grow and become stronger, and the opportunity for this country to be top dog and to be a beacon of Exceptionalism for the rest of the world to look to as a model to follow.

Person 1:

Your [sic] assuming liberals is a “theology” and not another word to mean open mindedness. I own a gun and like that law that allows me that. How about them apples?

I have traveled the world and speak with many different types of people. Do you think America has a bad name because of what Obama did or the wars Bush started? Obama “bowing” to everyone, being humble and not trying to act like American is the greatest and other countries don’t matter. I applaud that. He shohld [sic] do it again. We can learn a thing or two from other countries around the world.

Me:

Great. Glad you love 2A. Do you support gun control also?

I’ve traveled the world too. Been to Italy, Argentina, Japan, and another 30 or so countries.

In your eyes, the most advanced country in the world, the one that –

established the two greatest documents in the history of the world which provide freedom and liberty to individuals,
developed the technology to send a man to the moon,
developed the computer which allows the Leftists to spew their hatred of America,
helped to create the UN,
fought two world wars in the name of freedom,
has given trillions of dollars to just about every country in the world without the expectation of repayment,
has cared for and supports refugees from Europe in the late 1800’s, Cuba in the 1980’s, Central America through today,
built up relationships and developed peace treaties among hundreds of nations,
has done everything possible to advance and bring the world up to its level and status

should now dumb itself down and make ourselves less than what we are. Yeah, okay. That makes perfect sense. Since you are working in a tech firm, you wouldn’t have a problem then relinquishing your job and reverting back to the old hand crank telephone, right?

Tell me, seriously, what are we capable of learning from other countries that we have not already educated them about?

Person 1:

Ok Marc so your actually saying we did all those things and we are the best, and we have nothing to learn from other countries so F them and lets keep pushing the American agenda and everyone else should either be with us or against us. Typical Conservative, and is why most of the word has a negative opinion on us lately.

Me:

Wrong. I never said “F them.” Don’t go trying to put words in my mouth.

But let me get this straight, you want to cease utilizing for ourselves and providing to other nations the best damn blueprint that has ever been implemented to grow, develop and advance the society and country which, in turn, will provide you, and me and the rest of the American citizenry the opportunity to work hard, save money for ourselves, and be successful. That’s great to know. I’m sure there are lots of other people reading this thread who will also be interested in that theology you want to pursue.

Me? I like being able to work hard, play hard, save money, and support my family. But I also like to help others by educating them on how to address the situations they face, providing them opportunity to better themselves and their families, and grow in intelligence, maturity, and understanding of how they can do the same for others. Thus, I’ll always ascribe to the libertarian/conservative approach because it provides the skillset to do just that. It educates me to seek out the knowledge I need through a drive to be the most excellent in what I do. It encourages me to excel in all that I do so that I will be seen by others as a model and example of what they can be and what they should aspire to be so others can view them as models as well.

The liberal/Leftist theology only seeks to control the lives of each and every person through the implementation of laws and rules which bind and corral opportunity for each person. The government and bureaucrats are placed upon pedestals, not to be models of success, but demi-gods of power and control within the lives of each person. Why? Because the indoctrination centers make the claim that you are incapable of doing for yourself. You are an automatom destined to do the will of the bureaucrat and those selected few who know “what’s best” for you.

Person 1:

Stop bringing up the constitution. It was a groundbreaking document when written. Its old news now. Obviously with the stalemates we always have in congress means something needs to change. You think you know liberals from your fox news shows. You don’t know them at all. Its not one group with one way of thinking (that’s conservatives). You take three liberals and you have three different viewpoints. But those three will be opem to the others ideas.

Me:

Why shouldn’t I – and everyone else – bring up the Constitution as a discussion point when there is a political discussion? It defines for us what we are talking about.

To use Obama’s favorite term: Let me be clear,

We are not a democracy, we are a Republic. Specifically, we are a Constitutional Republic which means the sovereignty resides with the people themselves. In a Republic, one may act on his own or through his representatives when he chooses to solve a problem. The people have no obligation to the government; instead, the government is a servant of the people, and obliged to its owner, We the People. Many of the career politicians have lost sight of that fact.

While a Constitutional Republic has some similarities to democracy in that it uses democratic processes to elect representatives, pass new laws, etc., there is a critical difference which lies in the fact that a Constitutional Republic has a Constitution that limits the powers of the government. It also spells out how the government is structured, creating checks on its power and balancing power between the different branches. The majority of liberals are always terrified of the Constitution because it limits what they crave the lust for the most: power OVER the people. Consistently, the “gridlock” we keep hearing about stems from career politicians who are seeking to control money that is not theirs, which has been taken from the people of the country through confiscatory taxation, and to institute rules and regulations that will limit the freedom, deny the access to the free market, and subjugate the people of the country.

Frankly, I have had three liberals in rooms (in fact, I’ve had hundreds of liberals in rooms) to discuss topics. What comes across is the consistent lack of differing opinions. Rather, it comes down to a situation wherein, the difference of opinion is not in terms of a broad spectrum of viewpoints from arch conservative to extreme liberal, but who can mouth “the perfect position of the moment” for that day.

So far, I have not heard back from this individual. Perhaps s/he went on a lunch break. But I will any further content that may come along.

2:50 PM and a new post appears.

Person 1:

Say what u want. Repubs aren’t gonna win any elections for awhile. They need to seriously take a look at themselves if they want to appeal to the masses.

Me:

I whole-heartedly agree the Republican National Committee needs to reevaluate whether they are going to continue to support the career politicians like Boehner and McCain or will they embrace those who provide a focused approach of limited government and legitimate freedom to the American people as I described above. Anyone in marketing and communications will tell you that it is all about message and the conduit through which you seek to have that message expressed. The RNC has done a woeful job in conveying their message through proper channels that would allow for it to be heard without being twisted and manipulated into negative concepts. But what is one to expect from RINOs? After all, their only interest is to be “liked” while securing a long-term position for themselves apart from the rest of the society.

That is in much the same way as the career politicians have done like
Harry Reid (1987),
Menendez (1993),
Andrews (1989),
LoBiondo (1995),
Lance (2009),
Garrett (2003),
Smith (1981),
Pallone (1987),
Lance (2009),
Sires (2006),
Pascrell (1997),
Payne (2012),
Frelinghuysen (1995), and
Holt (1999).
The only one from NJ that I’ll give a bit of leeway to is Runyan who started in 2011 and that is only because he seems to have a bit of sense of what to do. Payne doesn’t get a pass because he took over for his father. Talk about family careers. Sheesh!

Back to the point, the message is there if only the RNC was willing to go out and defense it. Individuals like Sen. Cruz are far more willing to go out and make the message heard by confronting those in the Media and the indoctrinated. It is that type of person that terrifies the Leftists specifically because he in the “man with the hammer.” He is the one who will make sure that 2014 will be distinctive, with a clear message that defines the goals of the conservative movement, not just the RNC, as being of the people, by the people, and most importantly for the people.

Person 1:

What we need to do as a country is take away the two parties. Have everyone run on their own ideas. If a republican is pro choice he is shunned by the majority of conservatives or if a democrat is pro gun he is shunned by them. We need to take away my side and their side. I want to vote for people who think independently.

Me:

Hey hey! The anti-two-party-system argument comes out. I was wondering if you forgot about that one.

Rational human beings who have the capacity for thinking logically and reasoning based on researched fact, not what has been fed to them in the indoctrination centers, recognize the value of having open discussion where their thoughts and ideas can be expressed and there can meaningful, rational debate across all issues. Of course, if we did that it would mean that everyone, including liberals, RINOs, and those who are frankly lazy in their approach to being part of the larger world would actually be confronted with facts which would go against their opinions. Which goes back to the genesis of this thread: Why is it that when you confront liberals with facts, they go ballistic and bring up any and all non-related matters to try and get the better of you? Just wondering.

At this point, a second person jumped in.

Person 2:

Stop pounding [the man]; it is not fair. The ONLY schools I have sent my children to are CATHOLIC schools. There are a moral, academic and social reasons why they best the public schools. I don’t mean to come in at the end of the discussion, but I always defend CS…As your comment on the liberals being smarter, I will not BEGIN to address that fallacy. Would you spend well over 600 million on the ACA website? Don’t answer.

Person 1:

Your not helping your cause. When I was going to school and I saw kids buy drugs it was always from the kids from Catholic schools. They showed no greater morrals from the public school kids. Even now, there Is nothing to show kids from Catholic schools grow up to be any better. My children will grow up urged to have an open mind. Not one following an old book. And its funny you decide to not address the better educated and mostly smarter people are liberal. Higher education teaches you not only the facts of the classes your in, but to think on your own. To teach yourself and not to be a robot in society. You guys can keep complaining and keep posting about how you feel the government is bad and jesus this and jesus that. Facts are your party and your way of thinking is a joke. The world has changed and your far behind. Go take a trip to another country and take to some locals and maybe youll leaen something new.

Me:

What is freely affirmed is freely denied. It is very easy to claim something. Here let me show you: I saw private school kids wait around for the public school bus to stop in their neighborhood so they could buy their drugs. Do you know it’s true? Have I provided any proof? No. But I’ve written it. According to your approach, then it much be true. (But I’ll assuage those who may be reading and concerned and let them know it did not ever happen that I saw.)

I’m so glad to hear your kids will have an “open mind.” What happens when they come home and tell you they want to join the Catholic Church? Or worse, they begin not to agree with you because you can’t back up your opinion with facts that have been researched? Or will you only really think they are “open minded” if they spout the same concepts you do?

As an aside, in debate, when you being name-calling (your party and your way of thinking is a joke), it shows just how shallow and indefensible your position is. But do try that in business and see how far it gets you.

Person 1:

Our son can be whatever he wants. What if your children decided against being Catholic? What if they didn’t wanna get married in a Catholic church? Its almost impossible to speak with someone who was raised Catholic to have parents who are also Catholic to be ok with that.

Person 2:

My children have free-will and I would be heartbroken, if they left the faith, but I would at least expect a healthy exchange.

Obviously, you are not a statistician. To take your myopic sampling and project it to judge reeks of narrow-mindedness… Your children can certainly go in any direction you guide them.

Person 1:

Ill [sic] believe that when I see it. Nobodys [sic] mimd is being changed here. Vinny started it by saying he hates when liberals can’t take facts presented to them. Its hilarious he says that, he’s one of the most close minded/ [sic] his way is right and the other way is wrong. Facts are the world is changing. Gays are not evil, so leave them akone [sic] and let them live their own lives. Americans arent [sic] the only ones in this world so stop thinking that we’re the only ones that count and everyone else has to listen to us and do what we say. Start having an open mind. Heres another fact your book does not have the answers of the universe. And stop thinking everyone shohld [sic] own a gun. Limitations on gun ownership like background checks is ok. Fox news is hugely biased so watch or read other news sources. Liberals have no one big news source. Neither should yiu. [sic] Here is another fact, get with the current times or yiu [sic] won’t win another big election for a long long time.

Me:

Using that other “turn back argumentation” technique taught in Liberal Illogic 101? Really? You do realize just how much more shallow it is making your position. But that’s okay. Here’s a cogent response.

So if my children did, as noted, they would have free will to do what they wanted. Yes it would break my heart, but that is their call, not mine. I would, however, hope – and even pray – that my gentle and loving parenting would give them the experience to want to follow through on what I taught them. It would not be because of any demand I would place on them but rather because I have provided them the loving encouragement to learn about God, the abundant love and care He has for all of us, and the willingness He has to continue to love us even when we walk away – doing so in hopes that, just as with the Prodigal Son, we will return to Him.

Look at the posts you have made. You have consistently proven my friend right. I have presented a myriad of positions and topics articulating the conservative viewpoint, each one based on the new topic that you brought up. When you have not been able to best me, all you do is attempt to belittle and change the topic.

Person 2:

I can’t and will not try to change your mind; however, a Catholic is taught to love a gay person MORE, not to hate them, as you portend, but to LOVE them. Granted, we can and do hate the sin, but we LOVE the person,. gay, straight, etc…

Me:

Oh boy! You’re really getting wound up there aren’t you? Making that one last blast of liberal theology which tries to encompass the “world according to Liberals” but does nothing more than to express your opinion without consideration of the thoughts and ideas of others.

Person 1:

You guys can go about your lives complaining about the world and our president and how if we voted in your man thibgs [sic] would be better. Ill [sic] go living my life happily like I have before obama, [sic] during obama [sic] and will after obama [sic]. Must be nice to do nothing but complain on Facebook all day. I’m done fellas. Give my best to O’Reilly and jesus [sic].

 

Person 2:

ou addressed nothing I said, but I understand, mon ami.

Hey, may the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with you and your family always! †††

At this point, a third person comments:

Person 3:

Well there’s 20 minutes of my life I’ll never get back. In summary:

Some idiot hates when others “complain all day” and calls that sad, and he comes onto that person’s wall to complain about it instead of just moving on.

Same guy also calls people’s way of thinking “a joke” while spouting being open minded

Person 1:

Big difference between first time complaining and 10 posts a day at least of complaints.

 

Me:

Complaints or presenting a point if view you don’t like? Be honest now.

 

Person 1:

He can bash obama [sic] and our government and our country all he wants. When he starts bashing liberals which I am among I will defend myself. Its easy to say things on Facebook when nobody responds, but when he calls people out yhat [sic] responds then he himself can’t even respond. Just a little surprising. Figured he could have backed his comment up. Its easy to say something then not bavk [sic] it up

Me:

Yeah, reminds of the old joke about the Marine who clobbers the lib. prof. who wanted to prove there was no God. The Marine’s comment sums it up, “God was busy so he sent me instead.”

 

Person 1:

Dumb.

 

At this point I stopped as I saw the individual was incapable of understanding just how foolish and immature he had made himself look throughout the day. By these two comments, it was also plainly obvious he was only interested in having a verbal confrontation with my friend. My friend had no interest in such a fight and later told me as much when we met. My friend also thanked me for the effort I put forth to address this person and the shortcomings of his argumentation. In the end, there were no clear winners or losers. He had presented his point of view on a myriad of topics and I had done the same. I was not looking for a fight, nor did I care to beat him at his own game or any crap like that. But I hope I have presented a clear and definitive outline of my views and how they are supported through the experiences within the larger world.

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About VigilantKnight

Living life on my terms.
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