Logic vs. Opinion

Consider, for a few minutes, the recent discussion held on February 28, 2018, among President Donald J. Trump, Vice President Michael Pence and bipartisan members of Congress regarding school and community safety.  This was an outgrowth of the shooting that occurred at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Lakeland, FL on February 14, 2018.  It was from this discussion that came the now famous – or infamous – comment that sparked lively debate on Facebook.

President Trump said he favored taking guns away from people who might commit violence before going through legal due process. https://usat.ly/2oH4sGb

To the left is an image from USA Today which highlighted the comment.  The person who posted this on FB asked: “Ok, DEFEND THIS Trumpers! Tell me HOW you justify this?”

In response, I commented:

“Your comment shows you do not know the history from whence this comes or the sarcasm Trump is using to call out the Progs., the Dems and the RINOs. But that’s okay. Americans are learning the hard way how to be adults.”

My point is – and remains – when we make statements, we need to be cognizant of all that is being discussed, not just a single comment.  Yet that response on my part initiated the following from the original poster:

He is not being sarcastic, this was backed up by the WH spokewoman on at least 2 occassions since he said it. THIS is how he thinks. He is a LIBERAL!”

This set off a discussion of how to address access to guns and mental illness.  Are we to only look at the sentences uttered by President Trump?  Or do we need to actually evaluate the entire discussion that took place?  I would argue this is not just about two sentences.  This is about people taking time to cogently review what has been said throughout the discussion on school and community safety.

Let’s move onward.  I requested,

“Cite the statements made by Mrs. Huckabee Sanders that actually confirms this. That is, from the actual press briefings found at https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/. If you cannot find that actual, definitive confirmation from Mrs. Huckabee Sanders that clearly states ‘Mr. Trump wants guns removed from people’s ownership before there is any trial’, then your opinion is certifiably wrong.”

I say this as this is not a matter of one opinion versus another.  This is a matter of actually looking for, identifying, and defining the proof of the objective fact.  Interestingly, the response I received told me the person was not interested in being up-front or even pursuing this as a matter for rational debate.  Instead, I was told

“How about you look them up on youtube instead. [sic]  How can you actually believe what you are saying, he is going to issue an executive order about bump stocks, he is supporting MORE than what Obama wanted. [sic]  You are an idiot.”

When we bring in emotion and opinion it is essential to provide support through objective research.  That is because rational discussion needs to be conducted through logic, reason, and proof that what we think is, in fact, in a basis of fact.  But when the closing remark is “You are an idiot”, one has to question the validity of the entire argument.  That type of statement caused me to reply,

“Why bother?  You’re the one who started this.  Defend yourself and your opinion.”

But it was necessary for me to point out

“When you start the name-calling you have truly failed.”

Of course, the initial poster then asks

“I started it?  HOW, by QUOTING Trump is starting it?  You are mentally deficient, that is NOT name calling, that is a statement of fact.  You somehow are delusional enough to make excuses for what Trump PLAINLY stated.  How is that not idiotic?”

From here on out, I will simply provide the back and forth from the initial poster (IP), my own responses (MCK) and one interjection by a second poster (P2), which I quickly dispatched.

MCK:  Yours is the first post to which I replied with a simple statement. Your original post is from USA Today, a known Leftist ideological site from its inception, that has always sought to twist and manipulate words and phrasing out of context to incite discord and hatred among people within the United States.

If you bothered to actually listen to and read through the sequence of Trump’s comments at the meeting on Feb. 28, you would realize the sarcasm in Trump’s comments. Obviously you have not. If anything, that proves more about your willingness to blindly accept an opinion that fits your ideology than actually conducting real, objective research.

To help you learn about reality and eviscerate the opinion in your mind, here is the full transcript of the “Remarks by President Trump, Vice President Pence, and Bipartisan Members of Congress in Meeting on School and Community Safety”: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-bipartisan-members-congress-meeting-school-community-safety/

You have to go down about 3/4 of the way through the transcript to get to the actual text in question. Therein you will find the full context in which the statement was made by President Trump. You will also find the discussion actually began with Sen. Rutherford who started the discussion based on the laws that are already on the books on the State levels of Indiana and Florida among others in which guns can be removed from a person’s home when it is determined they are a danger to themselves and others based on their mental instability. To get to this point, you can complete a search for “Baker Act” and you will find exactly what I am talking about.

IP:  He was quoted by EVERYONE who was in attendance. Not just USA today. Fox, Conservative Tribune, etc ALSO quoted him.  Grow up.

MCK:  Just because they quoted him does not mean they understand what he is saying. Obviously you are in the same boat as they are.

Did you bother to actually read and comprehend the text I provided or are you terrified that you will have to deal with facts?

BTW, I am already grown up.  Why?  How?  Because I take the time to think, not just go with what the Dinosaur Media is peddling.

IP:  So ALL of the 2nd Amendment sites and all the Conservative sites fail to comprehend what he plainly said but YOU are so much more intelligent that YOU can see his brilliance and what he REALLY meant instead of what he SAID?  Is that what you are saying?

MCK:  Yep. Too bad emotion gets in the way of logic.

We all have a natural right to defend ourselves, our family, and our possessions through any means necessary.  Those means include the use of firearms of any type.

Whether you want to admit this or not, this natural right existed before the establishment of the United States of America, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights. The 2nd Amendment merely confirms the need and value of American Citizens to own firearms for the purpose of self-defense and to join – as needed – militia to defend oneself from one’s own government.

What is lost is the reality that people who have proven themselves a danger to themselves, their families, and society in general need to also be held accountable.  That accountability includes identifying when weapons – whether guns, knives, or other implements – need to be removed from their proximity until it is proven they are not a danger.

IP:  ROFL. Yeah, goodbye. You are obviously a genius liberal.

MCK:  Aw, does that scare you?  How little you know about me.  It is obvious I’ve “Trump”ed the opinion in your mind through logic and reason and you cannot stand it.

IP:  No, it just lets me know just how delusional you are.  Where do you get “scared” at in my comment?  Just tired of wasting time with someone who is NOT in touch with reality.

MCK:  So far, I’m the only one who has provided objective facts and reasoned logic in this debate.  It is you who have continued to tell me I am wrong simply because I do not agree with you.

IP:  You have proven NOTHING.  You have spouted delusional bs.

MCK:  I provided clear, definitive information about the entire transcript nearly an hour ago.  I explained how USA Today – and now I’ll add the rest of the Dinosaur Media and others who are disturbed by the quote taken out of context – did not include the established laws on state and local levels in a number of jurisdictions which already allow for the removal of firearms based on determined mental instability and the process by which the person can regain that ownership once they prove themselves to be mentally competent and stable.

I’ve also taken the time to identify how it is understood that the right to bear arms preexisted the establishment of the United States, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

You still have yet to prove that Trump’s comment is anything more than words taken out of context for the purpose of trying to degrade the man.  So not sorry this is destroying the opinion you hold in your mind.

IP:  I pointed out it was not just the mass media reporting it.  You claim to be smarter than EVERYONE else.  You are a joke.  Go away.

MCK:  I included “everyone else” with my statement “and others who are disturbed by the quote taken out of context”.  I’m not claiming to be “smarter” than everyone else.  All I am doing is following through on logic, reasoning, and intellectual structure of discussion.

If anything, you are the one proving you have never taken any form of forensics or logic in your education.  That is proving your position to be based solely on the opinion in your mind, not any type of factual research.

P2:. Wow, what an absolutely amazing example of trying to have a rational debate with a trumphumper cultist.

You have more patience than I as I’d have cut old Marc C. Kollar loose long ago.

MCK:  P2, I’m not interested in who says what (Trump, Dems, Progs, Socialists, Communists, etc).  I’m just interested in showing where the error of ways are in thinking.   IP’s thoughts have proven to be wrong-headed.

IP:  You are a clown.  You are not using ANY reasoning other than you have drank gallons of the Trump kool aid and refuse to see when he is screwing you and everyone else over.  Again, you are DELUSIONAL!

Yes you actually said you were smarter than everyone else. I said, So ALL of the 2nd Amendment sites and all the Conservative sites fail to comprehend what he plainly said but YOU are so much more intelligent that YOU can see his brilliance and what he REALLY meant instead of what he SAID?  Is that what you are saying?  Your reply?  Yep then more delusional speech.

MCK:  Actually, my approach to words, sentences and phrases is to actually read the entire context in which a person makes a statement.  That’s because it allows me to learn just how the person is presenting the argument.  The people who pick and choose the words they want to demean or vilify a person are doing so based solely on emotion.  That is done to justify the opinion they hold within their mind.

In the case of Trump’s statement, it is found within a broader discussion of how states are already implementing such a process.  Known as the “Red Flag” gun law, it permits family members in five states – California, Connecticut, Indiana, Oregon and Washington – to actually request local police to review a person’s mental state.  But the only way the firearms may be removed is if psych services determines an actual threat.  No threat; no removal.

For a Traditional, fiscal and social Constitutional Conservative such as myself, that is not scary.  Rather, it presents a sate-level method by which people can maintain both their established rights in access to firearms while also making certain the rest of society is equally protected through the family of the person.  As an aside, best practice would also be to have trained, vetted armed military veterans to maintain armed guard of schools as well.  Or does that frighten you?

As for my comment regarding that I was “smarter than everyone else” as you claim, let me educate you:  it’s called sarcasm.  The line I wrote was “Yep. Too bad emotion gets in the way of logic.”  My purpose was to target the Dinosaur Media and those “Never Trumpers” for their unwillingness to actually read and comprehend the entire transcript.  Their approach is simply to justify their opinion.

Early on you devolved in this discussion to name calling – idiot, mentally deficient, and delusional.  You have not responded in any meaningful manner with any objective research, any proven standard other than the opinion you hold in your own mind.  The fact I have provided a legitimate method to identify what was stated throughout the meeting is ignored by you.  The fact I have defined the logic and reasoning is ignored.  The fact I have shown and explained content which explodes the myth in your mind is ignored.  Rather, the blind hatred and animosity you have for Trump is just regurgitated with each post you make.  At once it is sad but also fun to watch you flailing about as you insist upon calling names instead of legitimate discourse.

All I am doing is providing you information and content that shows you where your opinion is fallacious.  If you do not want to accept it, that is your failing, not mine.

IP:  You keep spouting the same thing over and over and over. Just because you say it does not make it true. Sorry Mr. Delusional.

MCK:  Why should I change what is right when it is based on logic and reason?

It is clear you need counseling before you harm yourself or someone else.  All you are doing is racing on an emotional binge filled with angst.  It is well known the mentally ill consistently project their own illness on others who think differently than themselves.

The more you tap on your keyboard, the clearer it becomes you are not actually interested in a rational conversation.  Rather, you only desire to hold a false ideology based in emotional hatred and loathing of a person.  You are refusing to open your mind to endure the passage through the cognitive dissonance that will help you to purge yourself of that theory of opinion.

IP:  Oh you are still babbling.  You are a delusional nutjob  go away

MCK:  Why should I?  Now I’m having fun watching you twist in your own wind. 🙂

IP:  The only thing you are doing is digging your hole deeper.

MCK:  Do tell how.

IP:  Go read your babble.  Then go play in a busy highway.

MCK:  That response is exactly why you fail.

IP:  No, that response tells you how much worth I think you have.  Below none.

MCK:  That response explains volumes more. Great job in proving my point for me about how your original statement is such a quality learning experience for those who want to learn.  You, set in your opinions and unwilling to learn, prove my points continually made throughout this thread.

Knowledge doth make a bloody entrance.

IP:  You continue to babble.  You made no points.  You just babbled delusional BULLSHIT.

IP:  Since you also lack the simple intellect to take a STRONG hint I am not blocking your delusional trump worshipping self.

– – –

Indeed, there are those people who want to believe what they want to believe, not because it is correct, based in fact, or valued in truth.  Rather, they believe what they want to believe, solely because they have been blinded by hatred of a person.  In many regards, it is proof positive of just how horrific the world stage has become.

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About VigilantKnight

Living life on my terms.
This entry was posted in 2018, 2A, Bill of Rights, Freedom, freedom of speech, Second Amendment, Society, Trump. Bookmark the permalink.

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